Comments on: The major problem with minors http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/ Wed, 08 Feb 2012 16:39:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: drinian http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/comment-page-1/#comment-14940 drinian Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:40:37 +0000 http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/#comment-14940 As I said, I was able to double major without taking an above-average course load, and graduate in four years. This was in part because of AP credit, but it still would have been doable without. I think we're agreeing violently on the idea that interdisciplinary studies are a useful thing, especially when combining the social and analytical sciences. I will say that I think doubling up in physical sciences takes an extraordinary talent. However, what exactly is this college experience you're talking about that I missed? Would that include being president of the Linux Users Group, trying to save a startup company from floundering (failed), being an RA, building a curriculum and teaching a class, standing in line for a day for <i>basketball tickets</i> (of all things), writing for the newspaper, tech crewing a theater production, hijacking a school auditorium at 11 PM at night to watch movies, going to anime club every Friday night, fishing, and driving to Disney over spring break? Most people say that there's a lot more to their college life than just schoolwork, but somehow end up doing nothing much but drinking and complaining about their workload, or at least that was my experience at Duke. I could have sat at home and gone to parties for much cheaper if that had been what I wanted to do, and that's the only part of the "college experience" that I think I (mostly) missed. It's certainly not among my regrets for my college years. As I said, I was able to double major without taking an above-average course load, and graduate in four years. This was in part because of AP credit, but it still would have been doable without.

I think we’re agreeing violently on the idea that interdisciplinary studies are a useful thing, especially when combining the social and analytical sciences. I will say that I think doubling up in physical sciences takes an extraordinary talent. However, what exactly is this college experience you’re talking about that I missed?

Would that include being president of the Linux Users Group, trying to save a startup company from floundering (failed), being an RA, building a curriculum and teaching a class, standing in line for a day for basketball tickets (of all things), writing for the newspaper, tech crewing a theater production, hijacking a school auditorium at 11 PM at night to watch movies, going to anime club every Friday night, fishing, and driving to Disney over spring break?

Most people say that there’s a lot more to their college life than just schoolwork, but somehow end up doing nothing much but drinking and complaining about their workload, or at least that was my experience at Duke. I could have sat at home and gone to parties for much cheaper if that had been what I wanted to do, and that’s the only part of the “college experience” that I think I (mostly) missed. It’s certainly not among my regrets for my college years.

]]> By: Cyde Weys http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/comment-page-1/#comment-14758 Cyde Weys Thu, 31 Jan 2008 00:37:05 +0000 http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/#comment-14758 It is hard to double major for the average student. Also, the average student is focused on a lot more than just their schoolwork; there are all the other aspects of the college experience as well. It is hard to double major for the average student. Also, the average student is focused on a lot more than just their schoolwork; there are all the other aspects of the college experience as well.

]]> By: drinian http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/comment-page-1/#comment-14739 drinian Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:57:38 +0000 http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/#comment-14739 My point was more surprise at the claim that it's hard to double major at Maryland, and that the course load is probably heavier for CS students at Maryland. Not so much of a slam on Maryland students, as from what I've heard about Maryland's teaching methods in CS I probably wouldn't have made it through. The class I taught was to fill in gaps like source control and command-line usage, incidentally. But, as I said, I wasn't taking an above-average course load to make those two majors, I was just studying what I liked. I even had time to experience failing a class, then re-taking it, and failing again. Builds character. My point was more surprise at the claim that it’s hard to double major at Maryland, and that the course load is probably heavier for CS students at Maryland. Not so much of a slam on Maryland students, as from what I’ve heard about Maryland’s teaching methods in CS I probably wouldn’t have made it through.

The class I taught was to fill in gaps like source control and command-line usage, incidentally. But, as I said, I wasn’t taking an above-average course load to make those two majors, I was just studying what I liked. I even had time to experience failing a class, then re-taking it, and failing again. Builds character.

]]> By: Cyde Weys http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/comment-page-1/#comment-14724 Cyde Weys Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:58:35 +0000 http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/#comment-14724 Ouch, where did this slam about Maryland come from? As someone who actually attended said computer science program (thus I'm not relying on hearsay), I can say that you're wrong. Maryland does emphasize theory. I tended to gravitate towards the theory classes versus the hardcore programming classes anyway, so by the time I came out of it, I felt like I had a lot more preparation towards becoming a computer scientist than a career programmer. There's actually lots of necessary parts of career programming that I didn't learn at Maryland - including source control, databases (didn't take the class), etc. Luckily, I did all of that in my free time on various projects, including the open source PyWikipediaBot and <a href="http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2007/10/14/veropedia-launches/" rel="nofollow">Veropedia</a>. I do kind of pity the people who only did programming in classes and never really did any coding for fun — entering the business world must be quite a shock. And as for your degrees, well, you're just an over-achiever. Ouch, where did this slam about Maryland come from? As someone who actually attended said computer science program (thus I’m not relying on hearsay), I can say that you’re wrong. Maryland does emphasize theory. I tended to gravitate towards the theory classes versus the hardcore programming classes anyway, so by the time I came out of it, I felt like I had a lot more preparation towards becoming a computer scientist than a career programmer. There’s actually lots of necessary parts of career programming that I didn’t learn at Maryland – including source control, databases (didn’t take the class), etc.

Luckily, I did all of that in my free time on various projects, including the open source PyWikipediaBot and Veropedia. I do kind of pity the people who only did programming in classes and never really did any coding for fun — entering the business world must be quite a shock.

And as for your degrees, well, you’re just an over-achiever.

]]> By: drinian http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/comment-page-1/#comment-14719 drinian Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:16:06 +0000 http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/#comment-14719 I doubled in History and Computer Science, with a minor in Political Science, at Duke, in four years, with extra time left over to take classes in Middle English poetry and biology. Not to mention co-writing and -teaching my own pass/fail course. What exactly is Maryland's problem? Granted, from what I understand, Maryland's CS program is much more interested in creating career programmers than computer scientists, and probably teaches more of the "practical" skills. But that's a whole other issue (see also <i>Joel on Software</i>, "The Perils of Java Schools"). There is also a large number of Duke students who take CS as a second major, usually combined with Economics as a first. If you're just looking to find an entry-level programming job, and you really care about it, you'll be able to find a job regardless of your major. But the first question in the interview will be, "If you know so much about it, and care about it, why didn't you major in a technical field in college?" That being said, one of the better hackers and sysadmins I know, who used to work at Duke and now works for Red Hat, was a political science major in college. I doubled in History and Computer Science, with a minor in Political Science, at Duke, in four years, with extra time left over to take classes in Middle English poetry and biology. Not to mention co-writing and -teaching my own pass/fail course. What exactly is Maryland’s problem?

Granted, from what I understand, Maryland’s CS program is much more interested in creating career programmers than computer scientists, and probably teaches more of the “practical” skills. But that’s a whole other issue (see also Joel on Software, “The Perils of Java Schools”). There is also a large number of Duke students who take CS as a second major, usually combined with Economics as a first.

If you’re just looking to find an entry-level programming job, and you really care about it, you’ll be able to find a job regardless of your major. But the first question in the interview will be, “If you know so much about it, and care about it, why didn’t you major in a technical field in college?” That being said, one of the better hackers and sysadmins I know, who used to work at Duke and now works for Red Hat, was a political science major in college.

]]> By: Cyde Weys http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/comment-page-1/#comment-14716 Cyde Weys Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:57:28 +0000 http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/#comment-14716 That's an argument from an anecdote though. One individual case cannot beat the overall statistics. The overall statistics say that people who are trying to get into computer programming position are much more successful if they have a degree in the field than if they do not. Of course, occasionally, people do end up doing something different with their degree, but that's an edge case. The odds are that the major someone graduates with will make a big difference. That’s an argument from an anecdote though. One individual case cannot beat the overall statistics. The overall statistics say that people who are trying to get into computer programming position are much more successful if they have a degree in the field than if they do not. Of course, occasionally, people do end up doing something different with their degree, but that’s an edge case. The odds are that the major someone graduates with will make a big difference.

]]> By: Lee Kinkade http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/comment-page-1/#comment-14715 Lee Kinkade Wed, 30 Jan 2008 18:18:46 +0000 http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/#comment-14715 I dunno how much it does matter, Kelly makes more than me doing tech stuff with her Bachelor in General studies, against mine two degrees in Math and comp sci. I dunno how much it does matter, Kelly makes more than me doing tech stuff with her Bachelor in General studies, against mine two degrees in Math and comp sci.

]]> By: Cyde Weys http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/comment-page-1/#comment-14695 Cyde Weys Wed, 30 Jan 2008 14:26:28 +0000 http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/#comment-14695 What?! That's absolutely not true that your major doesn't matter. It matters a whole helluva lot. Just look at the jobs open to an English major versus those open to a Computer Science major. It sounds like you've been getting bad advice for a long time. It matters even moreso if you want to go on to graduate school, because good luck getting into a program that is unrelated to your undergraduate major. What?! That’s absolutely not true that your major doesn’t matter. It matters a whole helluva lot. Just look at the jobs open to an English major versus those open to a Computer Science major. It sounds like you’ve been getting bad advice for a long time.

It matters even moreso if you want to go on to graduate school, because good luck getting into a program that is unrelated to your undergraduate major.

]]> By: William http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/comment-page-1/#comment-14665 William Wed, 30 Jan 2008 08:44:56 +0000 http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/#comment-14665 I've actually heard from a variety of people that even your major doesn't matter much. Just that you've got <i>a degree</a> is the important part, and the rest is just icing. I sort of took that for granted, after twenty years of hearing it. You don't think that to be the case? I’ve actually heard from a variety of people that even your major doesn’t matter much. Just that you’ve got a degree is the important part, and the rest is just icing. I sort of took that for granted, after twenty years of hearing it. You don’t think that to be the case?

]]> By: Cyde Weys http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/comment-page-1/#comment-14656 Cyde Weys Wed, 30 Jan 2008 04:38:30 +0000 http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/#comment-14656 Minors aren't mostly useless. They can be very valuable in a job search. It certainly gives you another impressive thing to talk about during the interview. In terms of academics, then yes, minors don't much help you get into graduate school and they aren't sufficient in themselves to go to graduate school in the minor's subject area. But in terms of what you learn from them, they're very useful. That's a huge shame if the advisers at your school are actively discouraging people from getting minors — they're completely failing their students' interests. Minors aren’t mostly useless. They can be very valuable in a job search. It certainly gives you another impressive thing to talk about during the interview. In terms of academics, then yes, minors don’t much help you get into graduate school and they aren’t sufficient in themselves to go to graduate school in the minor’s subject area. But in terms of what you learn from them, they’re very useful. That’s a huge shame if the advisers at your school are actively discouraging people from getting minors — they’re completely failing their students’ interests.

]]> By: William http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/comment-page-1/#comment-14649 William Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:38:57 +0000 http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/01/29/the-major-problem-with-minors/#comment-14649 My impression of minors is that they're mostly useless, and that's also the idea I've gotten from my teachers and advisors. I'm looking at getting a CS minor if I can't get a second major in it. My impression of minors is that they’re mostly useless, and that’s also the idea I’ve gotten from my teachers and advisors.
I’m looking at getting a CS minor if I can’t get a second major in it.

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