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	<title>Comments on: Treating sewage before dumping it is against my religion</title>
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	<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/</link>
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		<title>By: Cyde Weys</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-16789</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyde Weys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2008 01:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/#comment-16789</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve found that the great thing about a modern lifestyle is all of the things it allows us to take for granted (I have a draft saved on this blog on the very topic).  Food, shelter, health care in many countries except ours and the third world &#8212; when you don&#039;t have to worry about these things, you can devote your entire attention to much more important matters.  The greatest invention in the history of science was agriculture, because it allowed societies to evolve in which some of the people produced enough to feed all of the people, thus freeing the rest of the people up to focus on more important things, like science and industry.

Living like the Amish, or in some regards the Buddhist monks, would be deliberately going against the most important historical trend humanity has ever witnessed.  I cannot fathom it.  I&#039;m glad you wouldn&#039;t do it, but unlike you, I don&#039;t even admire it in any sense.  I look at those people and don&#039;t think &quot;that&#039;s cool&quot;; I look at them and pity them.  Imagine all of those man-years wasted away by monks, contributing nothing in the grand scheme of things.  Meditating may yield weird changes in individuals&#039; brain chemistry, but it doesn&#039;t reveal any greater truths.  You need science for that.  I see throwing your life away meditating while not contributing anything to society as nearly equivalent to someone throwing their life away on drugs.

In May, the Large Hadron Collider, by far the largest supercollider ever, will come online.  It represents the efforts of tens of thousands of scientists and the input of billions of dollars.  It will shed new light on fundamental physical truths of the universe, likely revealing new fundamental particles, and it may either confirm or shatter the Standard Model of physics.  It is revolutionary in all possible meanings of the word.  And people like the Amish or Buddhist monks will have had nothing whatsoever to do with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve found that the great thing about a modern lifestyle is all of the things it allows us to take for granted (I have a draft saved on this blog on the very topic).  Food, shelter, health care in many countries except ours and the third world &mdash; when you don&#8217;t have to worry about these things, you can devote your entire attention to much more important matters.  The greatest invention in the history of science was agriculture, because it allowed societies to evolve in which some of the people produced enough to feed all of the people, thus freeing the rest of the people up to focus on more important things, like science and industry.</p>
<p>Living like the Amish, or in some regards the Buddhist monks, would be deliberately going against the most important historical trend humanity has ever witnessed.  I cannot fathom it.  I&#8217;m glad you wouldn&#8217;t do it, but unlike you, I don&#8217;t even admire it in any sense.  I look at those people and don&#8217;t think &#8220;that&#8217;s cool&#8221;; I look at them and pity them.  Imagine all of those man-years wasted away by monks, contributing nothing in the grand scheme of things.  Meditating may yield weird changes in individuals&#8217; brain chemistry, but it doesn&#8217;t reveal any greater truths.  You need science for that.  I see throwing your life away meditating while not contributing anything to society as nearly equivalent to someone throwing their life away on drugs.</p>
<p>In May, the Large Hadron Collider, by far the largest supercollider ever, will come online.  It represents the efforts of tens of thousands of scientists and the input of billions of dollars.  It will shed new light on fundamental physical truths of the universe, likely revealing new fundamental particles, and it may either confirm or shatter the Standard Model of physics.  It is revolutionary in all possible meanings of the word.  And people like the Amish or Buddhist monks will have had nothing whatsoever to do with it.</p>
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		<title>By: drinian</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-16780</link>
		<dc:creator>drinian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 23:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/#comment-16780</guid>
		<description>In general --
I never said that I wanted to live an Amish lifestyle any more than I wanted to live an ascetic Buddhist monk lifestyle after I stayed with them in Japan. But there is much more to life than the quality of goods. As Thoreau said, &quot;I went into the woods to live deliberately,&quot; and I believe that this is what the Amish (in general) are doing. Amish youth have the chance to go live in the outside world during their &lt;i&gt;rumspringa&lt;/i&gt; period, and they make an educated choice about what kind of life to lead.

However, in this particular case, after reading the longer article, I can say that it isn&#039;t even worth criticizing what is, effectively, a small sect even within the Amish community. These people won&#039;t even attach the near-ubiquitous orange triangles to their horse buggies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In general &#8211;<br />
I never said that I wanted to live an Amish lifestyle any more than I wanted to live an ascetic Buddhist monk lifestyle after I stayed with them in Japan. But there is much more to life than the quality of goods. As Thoreau said, &#8220;I went into the woods to live deliberately,&#8221; and I believe that this is what the Amish (in general) are doing. Amish youth have the chance to go live in the outside world during their <i>rumspringa</i> period, and they make an educated choice about what kind of life to lead.</p>
<p>However, in this particular case, after reading the longer article, I can say that it isn&#8217;t even worth criticizing what is, effectively, a small sect even within the Amish community. These people won&#8217;t even attach the near-ubiquitous orange triangles to their horse buggies.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff V</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-16752</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff V</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:24:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/#comment-16752</guid>
		<description>The Amish are a constant reminder of how easy it is to look back at &quot;the good old days&quot; and become nostalgic. What people forget is that as a modern citizen:

1. I&#039;ve drank better wine than any King of France pre-Antoinette (for far less money)
2. I live in a society that accepts any creed, culture or ethnicity.
3. I am almost 10 times as likely to achieve a degree of Bachelors or above than my grandparents were
4. I have easy access to food, water and all other basic needs at an incredibly nominal price
5. The internet exists so I am never bored
6. Strawberries are available year round for under 10 dollars

...the list goes on. Of course anytime you watch a &quot;period&quot; movie there is a part of you that wants to live in 1776 or some other far off time. That is the idea of nostalgia, the movie makes it look simpler and more fulfilling to be a member of the 18th century. However, any reasonably logical person should realize that they are probably much better off living in 2008 than any other time before.

The Amish&#039;s extreme nostalgia for...1840 I am guessing is severely inhibiting their ability to exist. That is sad.

There is a book I recommend about this kind of nostalgia called the Progress Paradox, by Gregg Easterbrook. Great book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Amish are a constant reminder of how easy it is to look back at &#8220;the good old days&#8221; and become nostalgic. What people forget is that as a modern citizen:</p>
<p>1. I&#8217;ve drank better wine than any King of France pre-Antoinette (for far less money)<br />
2. I live in a society that accepts any creed, culture or ethnicity.<br />
3. I am almost 10 times as likely to achieve a degree of Bachelors or above than my grandparents were<br />
4. I have easy access to food, water and all other basic needs at an incredibly nominal price<br />
5. The internet exists so I am never bored<br />
6. Strawberries are available year round for under 10 dollars</p>
<p>&#8230;the list goes on. Of course anytime you watch a &#8220;period&#8221; movie there is a part of you that wants to live in 1776 or some other far off time. That is the idea of nostalgia, the movie makes it look simpler and more fulfilling to be a member of the 18th century. However, any reasonably logical person should realize that they are probably much better off living in 2008 than any other time before.</p>
<p>The Amish&#8217;s extreme nostalgia for&#8230;1840 I am guessing is severely inhibiting their ability to exist. That is sad.</p>
<p>There is a book I recommend about this kind of nostalgia called the Progress Paradox, by Gregg Easterbrook. Great book.</p>
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		<title>By: Cyde Weys</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-16691</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyde Weys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 22:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/#comment-16691</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the article Andrew.  And yeah, it&#039;s the same tired &quot;We&#039;re religious so we don&#039;t have to follow the law&quot; bullshit again.

This was by far the best part of that article:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The Amish do not have telephones and were not immediately available for comment.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the article Andrew.  And yeah, it&#8217;s the same tired &#8220;We&#8217;re religious so we don&#8217;t have to follow the law&#8221; bullshit again.</p>
<p>This was by far the best part of that article:</p>
<blockquote><p>The Amish do not have telephones and were not immediately available for comment.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: arensb</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-16690</link>
		<dc:creator>arensb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 20:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/#comment-16690</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;+1: Informative&lt;/i&gt;

Here&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tribune-democrat.com/homepage/local_story_045232642.html?keyword=leadpicturestory&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;another article&lt;/a&gt; with a bit more detail. Basically, the problem isn&#039;t outhouses per se, but rather how the waste is disposed of.

That, and failure to obtain building permits, aka the Kent Hovind Memorial Offense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>+1: Informative</i></p>
<p>Here&#8217;s <a href="http://www.tribune-democrat.com/homepage/local_story_045232642.html?keyword=leadpicturestory" rel="nofollow">another article</a> with a bit more detail. Basically, the problem isn&#8217;t outhouses per se, but rather how the waste is disposed of.</p>
<p>That, and failure to obtain building permits, aka the Kent Hovind Memorial Offense.</p>
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		<title>By: Cyde Weys</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-16684</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyde Weys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 19:04:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/#comment-16684</guid>
		<description>A couple points:

Nothing in the article indicates that they were using the human waste as fertilizer.  That&#039;s another unjustified assumption just like my assumption that they were causing groundwater contamination.  But regardless of what the waste was being used for, I think the neighbors have a right not to be exposed to it.  It&#039;s an eyesore (and I bet it doesn&#039;t smell good either).  Maybe if the Amish didn&#039;t have non-Amish neighbors nobody would care, but they do, so they have to conform with the law the same as everyone else.

I don&#039;t see how using cell phones makes them self-sufficient.  Cell phones depend on cell networks just like normal telephones depend on telephone cables.  Even wind-up walkie-talkies wouldn&#039;t be self-sufficient because they don&#039;t have the technology to create them themselves.  Being self-sufficient means not depending on anyone else for anything &#8212; if you&#039;re using a lot of technology that you can&#039;t manufacture yourself, you&#039;re not self-sufficient.  Most of their other practices are self-sufficient; they do all their own farming, make all their own tools, clothing, buildings, breed their own horses, etc., so it&#039;s weird to see them going down this road.

And I don&#039;t particularly see the value of strong preservation just for the sake of preservation.  I think modern societies are doing more for humanity than the Amish ever did, or will.  They&#039;re a technological dead end, a curiosity.  If everyone had been like the Amish we wouldn&#039;t have any of the things we currently take for granted, including the computers that provide employment for you and I.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple points:</p>
<p>Nothing in the article indicates that they were using the human waste as fertilizer.  That&#8217;s another unjustified assumption just like my assumption that they were causing groundwater contamination.  But regardless of what the waste was being used for, I think the neighbors have a right not to be exposed to it.  It&#8217;s an eyesore (and I bet it doesn&#8217;t smell good either).  Maybe if the Amish didn&#8217;t have non-Amish neighbors nobody would care, but they do, so they have to conform with the law the same as everyone else.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see how using cell phones makes them self-sufficient.  Cell phones depend on cell networks just like normal telephones depend on telephone cables.  Even wind-up walkie-talkies wouldn&#8217;t be self-sufficient because they don&#8217;t have the technology to create them themselves.  Being self-sufficient means not depending on anyone else for anything &mdash; if you&#8217;re using a lot of technology that you can&#8217;t manufacture yourself, you&#8217;re not self-sufficient.  Most of their other practices are self-sufficient; they do all their own farming, make all their own tools, clothing, buildings, breed their own horses, etc., so it&#8217;s weird to see them going down this road.</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t particularly see the value of strong preservation just for the sake of preservation.  I think modern societies are doing more for humanity than the Amish ever did, or will.  They&#8217;re a technological dead end, a curiosity.  If everyone had been like the Amish we wouldn&#8217;t have any of the things we currently take for granted, including the computers that provide employment for you and I.</p>
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		<title>By: drinian</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-16675</link>
		<dc:creator>drinian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 16:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/#comment-16675</guid>
		<description>Using human waste as fertilizer contaminates their neighbors&#039; ground water supplies? That sounds unlikely, considering how much cow and pig manure is used today on mega-farms. The news article doesn&#039;t seem to indicate that there *are* any major water quality issues. And outhouses still exist on *normal* farms; I&#039;ve used them before.

I know that the article says it&#039;s their religious beliefs, but I would say that it&#039;s perhaps more complicated than that. The Amish generally want to remain self-sufficient and disconnected from the outside world, which is why you&#039;ll see Amish who live in fairly modern houses with propane tanks out back, but don&#039;t have electricity from the grid. Likewise, some Amish have actually started using cell phones. Much of their money comes from sales of hand-crafted goods like furniture; I think they were fairly disappointed when the state stopped accepting tax payments in kind. There are even Wal-Marts in Ohio with hitching posts for the Amish families who live nearby.

The Amish have admirably strong communities because they act so deliberately to preserve them, and there&#039;s a lot that can be learned from them. If you want to go after them, there are much easier targets, like how their insular breeding patterns have led to the emergence of really rare genetic diseases, or how their communities hide abuse when it happens. But don&#039;t take some overgeneralizing local TV news article and use it to make them out to be fools.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Using human waste as fertilizer contaminates their neighbors&#8217; ground water supplies? That sounds unlikely, considering how much cow and pig manure is used today on mega-farms. The news article doesn&#8217;t seem to indicate that there *are* any major water quality issues. And outhouses still exist on *normal* farms; I&#8217;ve used them before.</p>
<p>I know that the article says it&#8217;s their religious beliefs, but I would say that it&#8217;s perhaps more complicated than that. The Amish generally want to remain self-sufficient and disconnected from the outside world, which is why you&#8217;ll see Amish who live in fairly modern houses with propane tanks out back, but don&#8217;t have electricity from the grid. Likewise, some Amish have actually started using cell phones. Much of their money comes from sales of hand-crafted goods like furniture; I think they were fairly disappointed when the state stopped accepting tax payments in kind. There are even Wal-Marts in Ohio with hitching posts for the Amish families who live nearby.</p>
<p>The Amish have admirably strong communities because they act so deliberately to preserve them, and there&#8217;s a lot that can be learned from them. If you want to go after them, there are much easier targets, like how their insular breeding patterns have led to the emergence of really rare genetic diseases, or how their communities hide abuse when it happens. But don&#8217;t take some overgeneralizing local TV news article and use it to make them out to be fools.</p>
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		<title>By: Darmok</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-16625</link>
		<dc:creator>Darmok</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Feb 2008 06:28:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/02/15/treating-sewage-before-dumping-it-is-against-my-religion/#comment-16625</guid>
		<description>The sad thing is that even though this seems that the sewage-treatment mandate should “obviously” prevail, I don&#039;t trust the triumph of reason/rationality in this country anymore, even when religious beliefs cause direct physical harm to others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sad thing is that even though this seems that the sewage-treatment mandate should “obviously” prevail, I don&#8217;t trust the triumph of reason/rationality in this country anymore, even when religious beliefs cause direct physical harm to others.</p>
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