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	<title>Comments on: Bringing a Windows mindset to a GNU/Linux world</title>
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	<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/06/12/always-sudo/</link>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/06/12/always-sudo/comment-page-1/#comment-29267</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:31:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/?p=823#comment-29267</guid>
		<description>Re: Re: JP drivers: I live in Kyoto.  Is that &quot;boondocks&quot; by your definition?
Though I&#039;ve only ridden the buses a couple of times.  They scare me because I don&#039;t know where any of the stops are and I can&#039;t find a &lt;i&gt;map&lt;/i&gt; that shows where they are, just a diagram showing what order they&#039;re in.  I mean, at least a lot of them have useful names like &quot;In front of Hospital West Ninjaburg&quot;, but other times it&#039;s like &quot;Where &lt;i&gt;am&lt;/i&gt; I?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Re: JP drivers: I live in Kyoto.  Is that &#8220;boondocks&#8221; by your definition?<br />
Though I&#8217;ve only ridden the buses a couple of times.  They scare me because I don&#8217;t know where any of the stops are and I can&#8217;t find a <i>map</i> that shows where they are, just a diagram showing what order they&#8217;re in.  I mean, at least a lot of them have useful names like &#8220;In front of Hospital West Ninjaburg&#8221;, but other times it&#8217;s like &#8220;Where <i>am</i> I?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Lees</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/06/12/always-sudo/comment-page-1/#comment-29255</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Lees</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:14:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/?p=823#comment-29255</guid>
		<description>Rambo Tribble, we&#039;ve got to make sure that users know what&#039;s good practice and what&#039;s bad practice, rather than letting them keep destructive habits. It&#039;s like if your car driver put the gearbox into &quot;1&quot; rather than into &quot;D&quot; - sure, the car will go, but the probability of blowing out the engine is much higher. When I bought my first automatic, my father told me what the &quot;1&quot; and &quot;2&quot; settings are for, in case I need them, and so I know when not to use them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rambo Tribble, we&#8217;ve got to make sure that users know what&#8217;s good practice and what&#8217;s bad practice, rather than letting them keep destructive habits. It&#8217;s like if your car driver put the gearbox into &#8220;1&#8243; rather than into &#8220;D&#8221; &#8211; sure, the car will go, but the probability of blowing out the engine is much higher. When I bought my first automatic, my father told me what the &#8220;1&#8243; and &#8220;2&#8243; settings are for, in case I need them, and so I know when not to use them.</p>
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		<title>By: drinian</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/06/12/always-sudo/comment-page-1/#comment-29237</link>
		<dc:creator>drinian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 04:47:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/?p=823#comment-29237</guid>
		<description>Re: Japanese bus drivers, I only saw it happen way out in the boondocks with a few drivers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Japanese bus drivers, I only saw it happen way out in the boondocks with a few drivers.</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/06/12/always-sudo/comment-page-1/#comment-29228</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/?p=823#comment-29228</guid>
		<description>Japanese bus drivers:  I think that&#039;s a regulation, actually.  Every bus I&#039;ve been on has done that at about 75% of lights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Japanese bus drivers:  I think that&#8217;s a regulation, actually.  Every bus I&#8217;ve been on has done that at about 75% of lights.</p>
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		<title>By: Cyde Weys</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/06/12/always-sudo/comment-page-1/#comment-29218</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyde Weys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/?p=823#comment-29218</guid>
		<description>drinian: Hey, my car isn&#039;t beat up!  (Relatively, for its age, anyway.)  I&#039;m being a good environmentalist by not buying a new car until one is necessary.  And in the meantime, I get the added bonus of being able to mod it for ham radio without any real care in the world as to affecting the resale value.

And while I do recognize that using sudo for everything is superstitious, that doesn&#039;t mean it isn&#039;t worth putting in the effort to educate users not to do it.  It&#039;s not that hard to understand what sudo does and when it should and shouldn&#039;t be used.  It&#039;s a problem of ignorance, not a fundamental lack of ability to understand these things.

Besides, superstition is a bad thing.  At best it causes additional inefficiencies and at worst it can cause demonstrable harm.  I won&#039;t dismiss anything as &quot;mere&quot; superstition, because superstition itself is worth fighting against.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>drinian: Hey, my car isn&#8217;t beat up!  (Relatively, for its age, anyway.)  I&#8217;m being a good environmentalist by not buying a new car until one is necessary.  And in the meantime, I get the added bonus of being able to mod it for ham radio without any real care in the world as to affecting the resale value.</p>
<p>And while I do recognize that using sudo for everything is superstitious, that doesn&#8217;t mean it isn&#8217;t worth putting in the effort to educate users not to do it.  It&#8217;s not that hard to understand what sudo does and when it should and shouldn&#8217;t be used.  It&#8217;s a problem of ignorance, not a fundamental lack of ability to understand these things.</p>
<p>Besides, superstition is a bad thing.  At best it causes additional inefficiencies and at worst it can cause demonstrable harm.  I won&#8217;t dismiss anything as &#8220;mere&#8221; superstition, because superstition itself is worth fighting against.</p>
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		<title>By: drinian</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/06/12/always-sudo/comment-page-1/#comment-29214</link>
		<dc:creator>drinian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:38:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/?p=823#comment-29214</guid>
		<description>I agree that was very well-put, although I continue to argue that Windows encourages superstitious behavior much more so than Unix. And I don&#039;t think that this was a &quot;consumer-grade&quot; user. To extend the automotive analogy, he&#039;s more like the bus drivers I saw in Japan who would shut off the engine at every stop light to save fuel; they felt that they had much more knowledge than they did. Consumers don&#039;t do that, but I don&#039;t think there&#039;s too many people out there who are just &quot;consumers.&quot;

And yes, it is probably easier just to get away from teh stupid than try to fight it head-on. The year that everyone is a Unix command-line master is the same year that everyone in the US gets their income taxes done by the end of February, with plenty of time left before the deadline. Fastidiousness and precision are not in many people&#039;s nature, or are focused in specific areas. Many people would not drive a beat-up car like yours, for instance, even if it does make installing ham radio antennas easier.

It&#039;s a shame, because I think that if most office workers understood how to program and what exactly the computer can do for them, their jobs would become immensely easier and less repetitious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that was very well-put, although I continue to argue that Windows encourages superstitious behavior much more so than Unix. And I don&#8217;t think that this was a &#8220;consumer-grade&#8221; user. To extend the automotive analogy, he&#8217;s more like the bus drivers I saw in Japan who would shut off the engine at every stop light to save fuel; they felt that they had much more knowledge than they did. Consumers don&#8217;t do that, but I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s too many people out there who are just &#8220;consumers.&#8221;</p>
<p>And yes, it is probably easier just to get away from teh stupid than try to fight it head-on. The year that everyone is a Unix command-line master is the same year that everyone in the US gets their income taxes done by the end of February, with plenty of time left before the deadline. Fastidiousness and precision are not in many people&#8217;s nature, or are focused in specific areas. Many people would not drive a beat-up car like yours, for instance, even if it does make installing ham radio antennas easier.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a shame, because I think that if most office workers understood how to program and what exactly the computer can do for them, their jobs would become immensely easier and less repetitious.</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/06/12/always-sudo/comment-page-1/#comment-29209</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/?p=823#comment-29209</guid>
		<description>That was...  remarkably well-put.

Still, that kind of defeats the entire purpose of having non-root access, which we all recognize as being a major problem from a security standpoint.
But who I am to talk?  I&#039;m currently logged into XP under the default &quot;Administrator&quot; account.  Windows makes it too much work to be anything but an admin on my own computer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was&#8230;  remarkably well-put.</p>
<p>Still, that kind of defeats the entire purpose of having non-root access, which we all recognize as being a major problem from a security standpoint.<br />
But who I am to talk?  I&#8217;m currently logged into XP under the default &#8220;Administrator&#8221; account.  Windows makes it too much work to be anything but an admin on my own computer.</p>
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		<title>By: Rambo Tribble</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/06/12/always-sudo/comment-page-1/#comment-29206</link>
		<dc:creator>Rambo Tribble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/?p=823#comment-29206</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not L/Unix vs. Windows mindsets; it&#039;s consumer vs. technician mindsets. Can you rebuild an automatic transmission? Probably not, you just want to put it in &quot;D&quot; and have the car go. Why get so wound up when a consumer-grade user has a similar expectation of their computer? It is human nature to want everything to be simple and easy. To this user &quot;sudo&quot; is a magic word that makes things work. His/her use of it is a classic example of what a psychologist would term superstitious behavior. Such behavior was first cataloged in working with pigeons in the &#039;50&#039;x. It is part of the biology of our species. 

One of the shortest paths available to consummate frustration is to fight human nature. I&#039;d suggest you investigate other paths, if frustration is your goal. Many offer better scenery than this one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not L/Unix vs. Windows mindsets; it&#8217;s consumer vs. technician mindsets. Can you rebuild an automatic transmission? Probably not, you just want to put it in &#8220;D&#8221; and have the car go. Why get so wound up when a consumer-grade user has a similar expectation of their computer? It is human nature to want everything to be simple and easy. To this user &#8220;sudo&#8221; is a magic word that makes things work. His/her use of it is a classic example of what a psychologist would term superstitious behavior. Such behavior was first cataloged in working with pigeons in the &#8217;50&#8242;x. It is part of the biology of our species. </p>
<p>One of the shortest paths available to consummate frustration is to fight human nature. I&#8217;d suggest you investigate other paths, if frustration is your goal. Many offer better scenery than this one.</p>
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		<title>By: Cyde Weys</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/06/12/always-sudo/comment-page-1/#comment-29183</link>
		<dc:creator>Cyde Weys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 03:17:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/?p=823#comment-29183</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t say I really know anything about Linuxforums besides the fact that I occasionally see it in Google search results.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t say I really know anything about Linuxforums besides the fact that I occasionally see it in Google search results.</p>
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		<title>By: drinian</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/06/12/always-sudo/comment-page-1/#comment-29179</link>
		<dc:creator>drinian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 02:51:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/?p=823#comment-29179</guid>
		<description>Also, the original poster&#039;s choice of venue betrays an ignorance about the Linux community; I&#039;ve never understood the draw of Linuxforums or similar locations over the much-bigger discussion boards, IRC channels, and bugtrackers of the distributions and applications themselves. I do have a number of trusted people who I draw on outside of these channels, but Linuxforums strikes me as the IT equivalent of Yahoo! Answers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, the original poster&#8217;s choice of venue betrays an ignorance about the Linux community; I&#8217;ve never understood the draw of Linuxforums or similar locations over the much-bigger discussion boards, IRC channels, and bugtrackers of the distributions and applications themselves. I do have a number of trusted people who I draw on outside of these channels, but Linuxforums strikes me as the IT equivalent of Yahoo! Answers.</p>
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		<title>By: drinian</title>
		<link>http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/2008/06/12/always-sudo/comment-page-1/#comment-29178</link>
		<dc:creator>drinian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 02:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cydeweys.com/blog/?p=823#comment-29178</guid>
		<description>Well, this isn&#039;t so much an issue of &quot;Linux&quot; mindset as it is Unix mindset; the differences run much older and deeper than that. I already mentioned &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Art of Unix Programming&lt;/a&gt; , and I could also bring up the old &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX-HATERS_Handbook&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;UNIX-HATERS Handbook&lt;/a&gt;, written back before multi-user Windows on the desktop wasn&#039;t even a twinkle in Bill Gates&#039; eye.

The fact of the matter is that I don&#039;t think most people can really appreciate the intricacies of even the relatively rudimentary privilege separation in Unix without much time devoted and a certain degree of fastidiousness that most people do not even desire to be capable of. When working with corporate clients&#039; systems, for instance, I often find them littered with install packages, ignorant of good package management, with security skewed towards non-existent threats while ignoring real ones, and, worst of all, willful ignorance of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Filesystem Hierarchy Standard&lt;/a&gt; in favor of internal &quot;standards.&quot; And these are &quot;Certified UNIX Administrators,&quot; as I am reminded in their email signatures.

Learning how to think in Unix can be very demanding for the average user. I think that a little knowledge can be much more dangerous in Unix than in Windows because of the lack of special-casing and safety nets; one &quot;sudo rm -rf /&quot; and this guy&#039;s toast. This isn&#039;t a criticism of Unix, incidentally. I think that lightweight users who just want IM and email will thrive on Ubuntu as soon as they&#039;re shown the package manager, and I think dedicated Unix-heads are also in good shape. It&#039;s the dabbling &quot;power-users&quot; who are most prone to blowing things up as they mess around with tools they don&#039;t fully understand. The learning curve for someone raised on Windows is much higher because they&#039;ll try to understand the tools in a Windows context.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, this isn&#8217;t so much an issue of &#8220;Linux&#8221; mindset as it is Unix mindset; the differences run much older and deeper than that. I already mentioned <a href="http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/" rel="nofollow">The Art of Unix Programming</a> , and I could also bring up the old <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIX-HATERS_Handbook" rel="nofollow">UNIX-HATERS Handbook</a>, written back before multi-user Windows on the desktop wasn&#8217;t even a twinkle in Bill Gates&#8217; eye.</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that I don&#8217;t think most people can really appreciate the intricacies of even the relatively rudimentary privilege separation in Unix without much time devoted and a certain degree of fastidiousness that most people do not even desire to be capable of. When working with corporate clients&#8217; systems, for instance, I often find them littered with install packages, ignorant of good package management, with security skewed towards non-existent threats while ignoring real ones, and, worst of all, willful ignorance of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard" rel="nofollow">Filesystem Hierarchy Standard</a> in favor of internal &#8220;standards.&#8221; And these are &#8220;Certified UNIX Administrators,&#8221; as I am reminded in their email signatures.</p>
<p>Learning how to think in Unix can be very demanding for the average user. I think that a little knowledge can be much more dangerous in Unix than in Windows because of the lack of special-casing and safety nets; one &#8220;sudo rm -rf /&#8221; and this guy&#8217;s toast. This isn&#8217;t a criticism of Unix, incidentally. I think that lightweight users who just want IM and email will thrive on Ubuntu as soon as they&#8217;re shown the package manager, and I think dedicated Unix-heads are also in good shape. It&#8217;s the dabbling &#8220;power-users&#8221; who are most prone to blowing things up as they mess around with tools they don&#8217;t fully understand. The learning curve for someone raised on Windows is much higher because they&#8217;ll try to understand the tools in a Windows context.</p>
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